Thinking of having my porcelain veneers done at a dental school

I have an appointment scheduled at the University of Iowa dental school at the end of November. I am seriously considering having veneers done through their dental school. A friend of mine is in their last year of school there, and is learning to do veneers through the supervision of a faculty member. I would like some recommendations as to whether this is a good decision, and how I can get the best possible results if I pursue this option.
– Teresa (Her e-mail is edited to remove the names of the dentists she shared with me).

Teresa,
I really don’t know what to say to answer this question. You’re already moving in this direction of having a student do your porcelain veneers, and if you think that this could possibly work out, I think we’re operating in two different worlds and nothing I could say would sway you.

Here’s how I would put it. Why would you want to go through all that trouble and getting something permanently bonded onto your teeth for the result of a mediocre smile? Why not just leave your teeth the way they are and not do anything? Do you really think that in dental school is where you find beautiful cosmetic dentistry? Do you really think that you could find any Hollywood star or New York model who had his or her smile done at a DENTAL SCHOOL? Dental schools are bastions of professional political correctness where they are uncomfortable with the art of designing smiles.

To see an illustration of the type of thinking that reigns in dental schools, read my recent post from earlier this month, answering a sweet patient from the San Diego area who had a horrible experience with her “cosmetic” dentist. And Iowa in particular is a stronghold of this type of thinking. The dental profession there is very conservative, and it has been hard for me to find good cosmetic dentists in the state to recommend. When I lived there, I drove clear to Chicago to have my own dental work done.

I’ll tell you a story about the University of Iowa that may help. This was back in the 90s, when white composite fillings for back teeth were just becoming very popular. The technical issues of their wear resistance and toughness had been resolved, and my patients had reached a point where that was all they wanted – to a person they were willing to pay the extra above and beyond what dental insurance plans would pay to have the composite fillings and I was only doing two or three amalgams a year. At the time I had a lovely girl come work for me as a dental assistant. She was studying to become a dental hygienist. She asked me to replace all her amalgams with composite, which I gladly did for her. Well, she was involved in a traffic accident and fractured her jaw, and went to the University of Iowa to have that repaired. While she was under the anesthetic, without her knowledge, the dentists at the dental school decided that this was so terrible that she had these white composite fillings on her back teeth that they broke the first rule of dental malpractice and removed them all, putting amalgam fillings back in her teeth. When she discovered this, she called me, crying, wondering what she could do. She could have sued them and won, but that wasn’t her nature. But this is the strength of the dental school culture – they know what is best, and they will decide what your teeth will look like. Now since then, composite fillings on back teeth are enjoying more professional acceptance, but the culture of dental schools has not changed.

I am somewhat familiar with the name of your dentist. He is highly respected. And so is the dental school professor you mentioned. But they are both highly trained engineers of dentistry and they are not artists. The type of dentists who become cosmetic dentists are those highly skilled practitioners who found dental school stifling and who, once they get out, want to break free and explore the art of dentistry. Back in dental school, paying too much attention to what the patient wanted was considered pandering to the patient and unprofessional. But as these budding cosmetic dentists interact with patients, they decide that is exactly what they want to do. It is a transformation process that takes several years to complete, because of the shift in attitudes and the extra training and experience required to blend beautiful art with highly developed technical skills.

I’m not sure if this will have any impact on you at all. You’re likely to go ahead and have your friend do this under the supervision of the dentist you named. I imagine you will get a smile that will be okay, with mediocre-looking teeth, and porcelain veneers that are bonded very well, that are very smooth and very technically correct and that sadly will last for years and years. Too many years. Then when you’re ready to replace them, come to me and I will help direct you to where you can get a truly gorgeous smile.

 

 

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About David A. Hall

Dr. David A. Hall was one of the first 40 accredited cosmetic dentists in the world. He practiced cosmetic dentistry in Iowa, and in 1990 earned his accreditation with the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. He is now president of Infinity Dental Web, a company in Mesa, Arizona that does advanced internet marketing for dentists.

My phony-looking cosmetic dentistry, but my dentist tells me I should love it.

This is a follow-up from B.C., and some dental implants work that she is very unhappy about, but her dentist thinks it looks great.

Dr. Hall,
Thank you for such a quick response. I have been so upset since yesterday morning my pictures might not represent well, I took one as soon as I got home and then compiled an email to her and took two more just now, I hope they give you enough of an idea to be able to tell me what you think.

A little background – In 2000 – 2005 I was pretty sick for those few years and until I was well again I didn’t know I had serious peridontal disease. I was referred to Dr. — and she started treatment 2007 up until now. The real problem has occurred over the last year (since last Oct.) when she started the treatment (implants) for the top and bottom front. (There is some other treatment scheduled to be done on the back top and bottom later this year).

Until I found your site I had no idea that it could go so wrong. This dr. talked to me extensively about her experience and quality work and told me that it was very important to her for me to be happy with the results. I realize now she is not a true cosmetic dentist. She followed none of the protocol I read on your site and you can see the results. Which she is making me feel crazy that I should be happy with them – but I have an appointment tomorrow AM with a doctor from your site for a consult. The following is what she emailed me back.

“Hi (B.C.),
“I received your e-mail. I was very surprised of the comments made regarding your upper implant bridge.
“My professional opinion on your upper implant teeth is that they look very nice and in proportion. Note the nice shape and contour of the teeth.
“I would like you to know, it is my professional opinion that your upper implant bridge is very nicely and professionally done. I like the shade and the contours. However, I will extend your opinion to Todd my lab technician and see what he can do about it.
“Sincerely,
“Dr — ”

Dr. Hall’s answer, with the photo of the dental work that B.C. sent:

Dear B.C.

B.C.'s smile

B.C.'s smile

Yes, I can see what you are saying. While the teeth don’t look bad, they are very bright white, and they are a little large looking. They are also somewhat monochrome – meaning the color is flat and not blended like real teeth. But in her defense, they look okay, and they would be exactly what some patients would like. However, they’re not what you like. A true cosmetic dentist would not have cemented them with the reservations you expressed in your earlier e-mail.

Your smile is an expression of your personality. These teeth project a bold and extroverted image. They attract a lot of attention. I created some smiles like this, because some of my patients wanted that kind of a look. Most of them, however, wanted teeth a little more subdued and natural-looking.

But see, she has a different thought process, which is a fundamental part of her dental school training, and you can see it in what she wrote. I’ll repeat what she wrote here, and italicize the phrase I want to emphasize:
“My professional opinion on your upper implant teeth is that they look very nice and in proportion. Note the nice shape and contour of the teeth. I would like you to know, it is my professional opinion that your upper implant bridge is very nicely and professionally done. I like the shade and the contours.”
This is how we are trained in dental school – the dentist’s judgment should prevail, and to listen to the patient about how they want this done is “pandering” and unprofessional. She repeats this phrase – “my professional opinion.” You just have an opinion, she has a professional opinion. And you’re never going to get her past that. And what makes it especially difficult, is that MOST dentists think that way.

I looked at her website. I see she is a specialist – a periodontist – which makes it even more difficult, as specialists are even more entrenched in this thinking.

See what our recommended cosmetic dentist can do for you – I wish you well.

Other links: Read about the art of smile design.
Read about the difference between a true cosmetic dentist and a general dentist.

 

 

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About David A. Hall

Dr. David A. Hall was one of the first 40 accredited cosmetic dentists in the world. He practiced cosmetic dentistry in Iowa, and in 1990 earned his accreditation with the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. He is now president of Infinity Dental Web, a company in Mesa, Arizona that does advanced internet marketing for dentists.

Looking for a cosmetic dentist in Indonesia

dear, i desperately looking for a dentist nearest my city/my country,iam women,36,a business woman. i need to makeover my smile,i have tetracycline tooth but not so bad,years ago dentist told me to do full veneer or crown that i refused to do,today i heard about lumineers but a doc says i had to braces my tooth before..about 1 year ahead.it seem long time .i just need to cover neck of my teeth with composite bonding but need a good trained dentist around jakarta or other country around south east asia cos my work make me travel often.can you suggest few names of dentist nearest my country ,hope you kindly give me their contact number/addresses.i’ll really appreciate and thank full.i am waiting so long to take decision since i also afraid of being dissapointed about the resultof my apperance if i got untrained cosmetic dentist who are many in around us but just announced by him/her self. from Indonesia.

Megan,
Maybe two out of every hundred dentists in the United States are good at appearance-related dentistry. When you go into some of these foreign contries, it’s much much tougher to find good cosmetic dentists.

We have a handful of world-renowned cosmetic dentists in Denmark, in Dubai, in Melbourne, in a couple of places in India, and in southern Brazil. With these other countries, I think you’re just going to have to lower your expectations somewhat. But at the same time, I urge you to be very careful, because covering tetracycline stain is very difficult. Ask the dentist to show you pictures of a tetracycline case he or she has treated before to see if they have experience at this.

Here are two dentists in Indonesia who are members of the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry, meaning they travel to the United States for training at these AACD annual meetings. This is at least an indication that they have been exposed to advanced cosmetic techniques and are interested in becoming skillsful cosmetic dentists. I would ask lots of questions and ask to see photographs of their work and ask to talk to previous patients, because of the uncertainty involved. But here are their names.

I have no knowledge of these dentists or their work, but these are two dentists who have been general members of the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry:
Adrie Limen, DDS
Jl Tebet Raya #30 AB
Jakarta, 12810 INDONESIA
62-21-7278-0585
FAX: 62-8294236
General Member Print Profile
Doctor • Member Since 2006
Send an Email

——————————————————————————–

Charlius Tjiptarahardja, DDS
Kapuas 10
Surabaya, 602 65 INDONESIA
011-6231-5677-209
FAX: 011-6231-5666-610
General Member Print Profile
Doctor • Member Since 2008
Send an Email

That is where I would start. I make no promises about what kind of work they do. I only state that your chances are better going to one of these two than going to just anybody.
Dr. Hall

Click here to find an excellent cosmetic dentist in the United States.

 

 

We thank our advertisers who help fund this site.

About David A. Hall

Dr. David A. Hall was one of the first 40 accredited cosmetic dentists in the world. He practiced cosmetic dentistry in Iowa, and in 1990 earned his accreditation with the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. He is now president of Infinity Dental Web, a company in Mesa, Arizona that does advanced internet marketing for dentists.

One sign of an expert cosmetic dentist

Dr Hall,
I have tetracycline stained teeth, I have been referred to a dentist by my g. p. During my 4 visits I have had 4 different dentist.1st dentist says I need full crowns to cover the stains, 2nd says 2 sessions of laser teeth whitening will do this,3rd porcelain veneers. I then visited the Dentist that will do the procedure also advised porcelain veneers. He also admitted hes only done this twice. He had no photos, of his patients, nor anything to say he can specialise in this procedure. Now reading your blog, you say tetracycline is a delicate procedure and could easily be blotched up. So I have made an appointment for a consultation to a cosmetic dentistry been referred to by my brother.Is there anything else I should be asking for a cautious about, as I dont want to make a mistake as this is exspensive.
– Tania from Sydney, Australia

Tania,
Well, you’re on the right track, but I’m a little limited in what I can do to help you see an expert cosmetic dentist in Sydney, Australia. I do know of a great cosmetic dentist in Melbourne, but not Sydney. The level of expertise in cosmetic dentistry is low in Australia, and it could be difficult to find someone who can do this well. But you’re asking good questions, and you were able to weed out some dentists who would have been trouble for you. Let me try to help.

As you have discovered, a recommendation from another general dentist isn’t the way to go. This is because the basic problem is that the general dentist simply doesn’t have the appreciation for esthetics. His or her whole focus is on the technical aspects of the work and so the referral is likely to be to a dentist who is great at these technical aspects. Cosmetic dentistry tends to be pooh-poohed by the dentist community in general. Not always, but usually. So you usually need to get outside of that group to even get someone who appreciates good appearance-related dentistry.

The dentist wanting to do crowns, this is a red flag. Your teeth do not need to be ground down for crowns in order to cover tetracycline stains. Porcelain veneers is the treatment of choice, but some dentists are not comfortable with porcelain veneers, and this is one way to weed those dentists out, if they recommend that you do crowns.

And, as you have read on the website, laser bleaching would yield disappointing results. Tetracycline stains are simply too stubborn. It could lighten teeth a little, but not a lot.

I’m unclear about the dentist who was going to do the porcelain veneers who said he has only done this twice. Do you mean he has only done porcelain veneers twice? If so, that is a very bad sign. Or do you mean he has only treated tetracycline stains twice? That isn’t quite as bad. And asking for photographs is a minimum requirement. I would go a step further and ask to see photographs of the results of a tetracycline stain case. It would be best to have a dentist who has some experience doing porcelain veneers for a tetracycline stain case. Their first tetracycline case will always surprise them. When I did my first tetracycline case, I thought I knew how to treat it well. But a couple of years later, after I had learned more and developed more skills, I was embarrassed by how that first case looked, and I re-did it for the patient for free, even though she had never complained about how it looked. But when you begin to take pride in the beauty of your work, you don’t want any work out there that you have done that doesn’t look positively stunning.

In my years of fielding questions from patients over the Internet, I have learned that there is one hallmark of an excellent cosmetic dentist that is a pretty reliable indicator of the quality of their work, and that is their reaction to a patient who is trying on the new smile before it is permanently bonded. The excellent cosmetic dentist will be very concerned about your opinion of how the work looks, and the slightest sign of dissatisfaction will be addressed. Now this isn’t the only indicator that the dentist does quality cosmetic dentistry, but it is a minimum requirement for a dentist who is serious about appearance-related dentistry. They will try the case in your mouth temporarily and you will get a good look at it. If you’re lukewarm about how it looks, they will send it back to the laboratory to be fixed or even re-made. But the dentist who has little confidence in his or her abilities as a cosmetic dentist or simply doesn’t care that much if you are only partly satisfied will do this step very differently. Here are the different things they may do:

1. They may not really give you an adequate look at the work before permanently bonding the case.
2. If you’re not sure you like it, they will tell you how great it looks, trying to talk you into letting them bond it on permanently. Sometimes they get their staff involved, to come in and convince you it looks great.
3. They will make excuses for why it doesn’t look all that beautiful – saying it will look better after it is permanently bonded, or it will look better after it’s been in your mouth for a while or after you get used to it, or they will say that what you want is too difficult or even impossible to achieve.

An excellent cosmetic dentist will not only be very attentive to the slightest sign of a lack of enthusiasm by the patient, but will generally be fussier than the patient about how it looks.

So here’s what I would do in your situation, since I don’t have anyone to recommend in Sydney. I would make sure the dentist had done plenty of porcelain veneer cases and ask to be shown pictures. Then I would ask the dentist if he or she ever had a situation where they sent the case back to the laboratory to be re-made or revised before putting it on. Then I would ask further if they ever had a situation where the patient thought the work was okay but they said that it wasn’t good enough and they sent it back to the lab. And I would follow up this question with a request to speak to the patient involved, so you could quiz the patient on how this try-in went, to reassure you that if you aren’t too excited about the results, the dentist will have the case re-done by the laboratory until you do.

I don’t want to suggest that this method is fool-proof. It could land you with a dentist who is well-intentioned but lacking in skill. The best way is to have the dentist’s work evaluated by another expert cosmetic dentist. But this method will help you avoid most of the pretenders and is more reliable by far than a recommendation from another dentist.

I hope this is helpful,
Dr. Hall

 

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About David A. Hall

Dr. David A. Hall was one of the first 40 accredited cosmetic dentists in the world. He practiced cosmetic dentistry in Iowa, and in 1990 earned his accreditation with the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. He is now president of Infinity Dental Web, a company in Mesa, Arizona that does advanced internet marketing for dentists.

Questions about the integrity of mynewsmile.com listings

Dr Hall:
When dentists send you pictures of their work, how do you know the photos haven’t been retouched? Also, since they pay to be included on your site, have you ever turned a dentist down because his work wasn’t good enough? Thanks.
– Mark from Massachusetts

Mark,
Actually, most of the dentists who approach me about being listed on mynewsmile.com are turned down. I have a whole file folder full of those requests. And sometimes it’s kind of awkward because I know the dentist, but if their work doesn’t measure up, I simply won’t list them.

You’ll notice that other sites that list dentists just list them – they don’t say they recommend them, they just list the name. But on mynewsmile.com, the wording specifically says that these cosmetic dentists are recommended. You don’t find that kind of wording on other dental directories. So I’m sticking my neck out to do that, and I need to have assurances that their work is good enough for me to put my name behind them.

As far as dentists altering the photos – I have never had an incident where I suspected that. In most cases when I turn down dentists, the dentist thinks their work looks great. So they wouldn’t even know how to retouch the photos to make them meet my standards. If they were artistic enough to make the photos look good, they would be artistic enough to make the cosmetic dentistry look good. Plus, I don’t rely on the photos alone, but I also use other credentials and reputation among other cosmetic dentists. I have had a couple of examples where the photos looked okay, but, reports from other cosmetic dentists who were familiar with the dentist’s work told me that their work was inconsistent, so I turned them down.

I also listen carefully if any mynewsmile.com visitor has a complaint about the work of any of our member dentists. I have had only three complaints. In the case of two of them, the complaints didn’t hold up under scrutiny. In one of those cases, the woman I think must have been surprised that I took her complaint seriously, and when I said I wanted to investigate it, she said that she had made a bigger deal of it than she should have and that she was actually pretty happy with the work. In the third case, the issue was easily resolved.

I hope this helps.

Dr. Hall

Links:
Click here to ask the dentist a question.
Click here to see smile makeover photos.

 

We thank our advertisers who help fund this site.

About David A. Hall

Dr. David A. Hall was one of the first 40 accredited cosmetic dentists in the world. He practiced cosmetic dentistry in Iowa, and in 1990 earned his accreditation with the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. He is now president of Infinity Dental Web, a company in Mesa, Arizona that does advanced internet marketing for dentists.

I have a high resistance to novocain

Dr. Hall
I am a fairly young female who has extensive dental problems mainly due to having a high tolerance for novocain. Therefore, making every trip to the dentist horrifyingly painful. After a while I just got discouraged and stopped going. Now I am older and what to take full control of my dental hygiene. I have 5 or more teeth that need to be extracted but haven’t done so cause I immediately want them replaced with preferably implants. My goal is to have heathly teeth with a beautiful smile. Since I live in New York, do you recommend I out-source to another state to keep the cost as low as possible?
– Nina from New York

Nina,
Manhattan has some of the best cosmetic dentists in the country, but it is also a very high fee area. Yes, if you want to save money and don’t mind travelling, there are excellent cosmetic dentists in either New Jersey, or on Long Island.

Interestingly, over the years when I have looked, I haven’t found a cosmetic dentist I wanted to recommend in any other boroughs of New York City except Queens. So apparently really good cosmetic dentists have no interest in locating in Brooklyn, for example.

But I wanted to address your high tolerance for novocain. This is nothing more than a higher level of anxiety when you’re getting dental work, and what you need is not more novocain but some type of relaxant. I know this subject very well, because I had a special interest in treating this type of patient, and the question I asked to find out if people needed a little nitrous oxide or possibly an oral sedative was, “How does novocain work for you?” In every case, where a patient had what they felt was a high resistance to novocain, using a little nitrous oxide, or perhaps an oral sedative before the appointment took care of the problem, and the novocain worked fine.

I also know this subject well because I am one of these patients also. I’ve had some very stressful experiences in the dental chair as a patient, so I tend to get anxious when I have any work done and the novocain wears off very quickly on me, unless I have some nitrous oxide. You can read about this in an article I wrote for Dental Economics about dental fear.

So look for a dentist who has nitrous oxide available. That could mean a world of difference to you for your future dental care.
– Dr. Hall

 

We thank our advertisers who help fund this site.

About David A. Hall

Dr. David A. Hall was one of the first 40 accredited cosmetic dentists in the world. He practiced cosmetic dentistry in Iowa, and in 1990 earned his accreditation with the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry. He is now president of Infinity Dental Web, a company in Mesa, Arizona that does advanced internet marketing for dentists.

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